July 29, 2010, 11:25:30 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: SMF - Just Installed!
 
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Hillbilly Engineering- All practical knowledge revealed  (Read 5568 times)
KBighair
Newbie
*
Posts: 37


View Profile
« on: June 06, 2006, 10:06:30 PM »

After looking at these forums for a LONG time and seeing the questions many people ask, I will take this opportunity to answer some of them. How do I know the answers to these questions??  Because over the past two days I have actually done everything I am going to tell you about. HA!

So here it is folks- I will add photos to my blog http://kbighair.typepad.com/el_ranch_iso/ next week when I get home and back to a faster internet connection.

Q. What is the best way to cut holes in my container for doors and windows? Do I need a plasma torch or special tools?

A. Hell no.  Get yourself a reciprocating saw and a bunch of metal blades. The blades are rated on the package. Get the ones that say "for metal over 1/4inch and go to town.  You might have to use a grinder on the bottom of the cut (the floor of the container) to smooth it out but it is fast and easy. Drill a hole to get you started and then rip away- it's almost like butter.

DO NOT, and I repeat, do not use a circular saw and metal blades unless you want to double your time, effort and expense. The blades are more expensive, it can bend the metal and it makes too damn much noise because your cut is wider.

Q. Must I have access to a large crane or lifting device to elevate my container?

A. NO!  (bear in mind that I lifted 2 20' containers and not a 40' but I doubt it is much different)  Get your self a couple of 20 ton bottle jacks at Tractor Supply or Northern Tool. Get a shorty and a regular one. They are about $30-40 bucks each or less. Then, get a bunch of wood- 6x6 posts are great. You should also have on hand something to use as a lever. We used a piece of 1/4 wall steel square tubing about 3 feet long. Why? Because in order to get started lifting, you can stick the metal in the forklift holes and then put your bottle jack away from the container. Dig it in the dirt a little if you need to. Then, jack away until you have lifted the container about 2 inches off the ground. Then stick something under it- a piece of concrete or even a 2x6 will work. Then, let the jack down and repeat the process about a bazillion time until you get one side of the container up off the ground about 4-6inches. Then, move to the other side. This is a simple process of lift,block,reposition etc over and over. It didn't take THAT long- maybe 4 hours with breaks for beer for my helper- and that was for both containers.. Also, the temperature outside was 100+ degrees so we were moving slow.

The thing about containers is once you start lifting, you will find that they are so rigid they are predictable and will lift predictably. One major warning though... Do not ever (and I mean ever) jack up the short side unless you have 2 jacks on either side, close to the feet. Why? because the damn things will move on you and you DON'T want that. My dipboor assistant brawn but no brain bent the hell out of a 10 to tractor jack because he didn't think about torque and tried to do it from the center. Ding Dong....

Should your design require a porch, deck or other whatever that will have beams and joists, remember that you have to get the things at least 12" off the ground but probably more like 16". That's not a problem but if you start with the front of the container (with the doors) on a slope and it is lower that the other end, you will be jacking that end until your ears bleed.
Even a little slope downward means a LOT of jacking over a 20' span.

16" x 4" concrete blocks work great for resting the feet of the container or making your simple foundation. They are also awesome if you intend to pour piers with concrete but you don't want to spend a bazillion dollars measuring and leveling and blah blah blah and then wait for 2 weeks for the things to cure before you do anything else. Which brings us to the next question and answer from the impatient department:

Q. Must I have access to an expensive crane or lifting device to set my container (s) on the foundations? Must I hire a concrete truck to bring my concrete?

A. Hell no! (squared)  Jack up the containers. Then when you get them high enough, rest them on some aforementioned 16" x 4" blocks. Put them all over the place except where you want your piers to be (under the container feet)

Then, dig your hole, stick in your Sonotube or Bigfoot or whatever you are using and pour the concrete in there. Rent a small mixer and drag it to your site and it will be a lot easier than mixing in smaller batches. You might have to weasel it in with a funnel-ish kind of thing but by definition, part of the round Sonotube will be away from the foot anyway so there is a little room.  After the concrete cures, you can jack the container down onto the footings and VOILA! No need for a crane. HA! (Be sure to make the Sonotube only about 1/2 inch lower then the foot when it is on the pads.) That way you can go about your business while it dries.

Q. Is it hard to move a container?

A. No, if you have a truck or a winch or preferably both.  Just put a tow strap through the holes in the feet, hook it over your trailer hitch and drag away.  Because we chose a jackass design that required that both containers be exactly evenly spaced and square in all directions, we had a much harder time then most will have. We had the containers off the ground when we realized that one was about 6 inches forward of the other. Rather than lowering an hour of work, we put a piece of wood on top of the pads and just winched that sucker where it needed to be. We had to stop and re-position the pads once or twice but by this point we were expert "jackers" No sweat.

Well kids, there are many more answers to many more questions forthcoming. However, I will save them for later because I have to get up at dawn to work so that I won't burn my hands touching the container.  I should have done this in March.  Oh well.  

Stay tuned, all will be revealed at some point. I took a ton of photos and as soon as I get back to a cable modem, you can see every step.   I only had time to write this because we knocked off early tonight so that my helper could ride his 4-wheeler and chase some wild turkeys. Wait, maybe he was going to drink Wild Trukey while riding his four wheeler. Who knows?

Buenos Noches from Tejas.
(Did I mention I am a 40 year old woman?)
(Bow to the Goddess)
Logged

aren Mc
MadTainer
Newbie
*
Posts: 12


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2006, 12:56:00 PM »

Quote from: "KBighair"
After looking at these forums for a LONG time and seeing the questions many people ask, I will take this opportunity to answer some of them. How do I know the answers to these questions??  Because over the past two days I have actually done everything I am going to tell you about. HA!

So here it is folks- I will add photos to my blog http://kbighair.typepad.com/el_ranch_iso/ next week when I get home and back to a faster internet connection.

Q. What is the best way to cut holes in my container for doors and windows? Do I need a plasma torch or special tools?

A. Hell no.  Get yourself a reciprocating saw and a bunch of metal blades. The blades are rated on the package. Get the ones that say "for metal over 1/4inch and go to town.  You might have to use a grinder on the bottom of the cut (the floor of the container) to smooth it out but it is fast and easy. Drill a hole to get you started and then rip away- it's almost like butter.

DO NOT, and I repeat, do not use a circular saw and metal blades unless you want to double your time, effort and expense. The blades are more expensive, it can bend the metal and it makes too damn much noise because your cut is wider.

Q. Must I have access to a large crane or lifting device to elevate my container?

A. NO!  (bear in mind that I lifted 2 20' containers and not a 40' but I doubt it is much different)  Get your self a couple of 20 ton bottle jacks at Tractor Supply or Northern Tool. Get a shorty and a regular one. They are about $30-40 bucks each or less. Then, get a bunch of wood- 6x6 posts are great. You should also have on hand something to use as a lever. We used a piece of 1/4 wall steel square tubing about 3 feet long. Why? Because in order to get started lifting, you can stick the metal in the forklift holes and then put your bottle jack away from the container. Dig it in the dirt a little if you need to. Then, jack away until you have lifted the container about 2 inches off the ground. Then stick something under it- a piece of concrete or even a 2x6 will work. Then, let the jack down and repeat the process about a bazillion time until you get one side of the container up off the ground about 4-6inches. Then, move to the other side. This is a simple process of lift,block,reposition etc over and over. It didn't take THAT long- maybe 4 hours with breaks for beer for my helper- and that was for both containers.. Also, the temperature outside was 100+ degrees so we were moving slow.

The thing about containers is once you start lifting, you will find that they are so rigid they are predictable and will lift predictably. One major warning though... Do not ever (and I mean ever) jack up the short side unless you have 2 jacks on either side, close to the feet. Why? because the damn things will move on you and you DON'T want that. My dipboor assistant brawn but no brain bent the hell out of a 10 to tractor jack because he didn't think about torque and tried to do it from the center. Ding Dong....

Should your design require a porch, deck or other whatever that will have beams and joists, remember that you have to get the things at least 12" off the ground but probably more like 16". That's not a problem but if you start with the front of the container (with the doors) on a slope and it is lower that the other end, you will be jacking that end until your ears bleed.
Even a little slope downward means a LOT of jacking over a 20' span.

16" x 4" concrete blocks work great for resting the feet of the container or making your simple foundation. They are also awesome if you intend to pour piers with concrete but you don't want to spend a bazillion dollars measuring and leveling and blah blah blah and then wait for 2 weeks for the things to cure before you do anything else. Which brings us to the next question and answer from the impatient department:

Q. Must I have access to an expensive crane or lifting device to set my container (s) on the foundations? Must I hire a concrete truck to bring my concrete?

A. Hell no! (squared)  Jack up the containers. Then when you get them high enough, rest them on some aforementioned 16" x 4" blocks. Put them all over the place except where you want your piers to be (under the container feet)

Then, dig your hole, stick in your Sonotube or Bigfoot or whatever you are using and pour the concrete in there. Rent a small mixer and drag it to your site and it will be a lot easier than mixing in smaller batches. You might have to weasel it in with a funnel-ish kind of thing but by definition, part of the round Sonotube will be away from the foot anyway so there is a little room.  After the concrete cures, you can jack the container down onto the footings and VOILA! No need for a crane. HA! (Be sure to make the Sonotube only about 1/2 inch lower then the foot when it is on the pads.) That way you can go about your business while it dries.

Q. Is it hard to move a container?

A. No, if you have a truck or a winch or preferably both.  Just put a tow strap through the holes in the feet, hook it over your trailer hitch and drag away.  Because we chose a jackass design that required that both containers be exactly evenly spaced and square in all directions, we had a much harder time then most will have. We had the containers off the ground when we realized that one was about 6 inches forward of the other. Rather than lowering an hour of work, we put a piece of wood on top of the pads and just winched that sucker where it needed to be. We had to stop and re-position the pads once or twice but by this point we were expert "jackers" No sweat.

Well kids, there are many more answers to many more questions forthcoming. However, I will save them for later because I have to get up at dawn to work so that I won't burn my hands touching the container.  I should have done this in March.  Oh well.  

Stay tuned, all will be revealed at some point. I took a ton of photos and as soon as I get back to a cable modem, you can see every step.   I only had time to write this because we knocked off early tonight so that my helper could ride his 4-wheeler and chase some wild turkeys. Wait, maybe he was going to drink Wild Trukey while riding his four wheeler. Who knows?

Buenos Noches from Tejas.
(Did I mention I am a 40 year old woman?)
(Bow to the Goddess)


From another goddess who lives has done all that and more. Older than 40 but I get help from the engineer I married.

If you design like ours you DO NOT NEED TO POUR ANY CONCRETE, a shipping container can stand stacked up nine high they do not  need to be bolted to the ground or supported in a traditional house manner. Very nice to consider if your ground has any settling, why do it? We set ours on Rail Road Ties skids.  We have had large earthquakes with NO damage and did all the math for wind and quake loads indicate we have an extremely safe solution.  We jack the house up, we have moved the house, weighed the house 90tons, turned the house all this because we are NOT attached to any fixed pad. Consider that flexiblity, with the price of cement?  Why pass loads from the ground into your structure?  many heavy structures stand with out concrete footings just ask Boeing about thier airplanes.

Just food for thought - In my opinion, concrete is over rated.. over priced.. cracks...floats.. pretty ugly yuck.
Logged
etb
Newbie
*
Posts: 13


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2006, 03:01:50 PM »

Very useful information.  Thanks.  Consider the goddess bowed to.  Looking forward to the pictures on your blog.

Quote from: "KBighair"
Because in order to get started lifting, you can stick the metal in the forklift holes and then put your bottle jack away from the container.


As I understand it, 40' containers usually don't have the forklift pockets.  Any thoughts on whether you could use the same trick on the corner fittings?

Perhaps with a little bracket thing made to hook into the rounded slot and to go over the jack.

Ed.
Logged
fabadmin
Administrator
Newbie
*****
Posts: 660


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2006, 11:35:03 PM »

Thanks for sharing!
Logged
J. Kretschmer, AIA
Newbie
*
Posts: 42


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2006, 08:03:22 AM »

Quote from: "KBighair"
.

If you design like ours you DO NOT NEED TO POUR ANY CONCRETE, a shipping container can stand stacked up nine high they do not  need to be bolted to the ground or supported in a traditional house manner.


Did you get a permit for that? I can't imagine any municipality that would currently issue a building permit for a permanent structure without a foundation made of concrete.

I've also seen many containers resting on the ground with their bases rusting away to nothing.
Logged

ennifer Kretschmer, AIA
Principal Architect
J. Kretschmer Architect, San Jose, CA
www.jkretschmer.com
Member: American Institute of Architects, NCARB
Mountainman
Newbie
*
Posts: 18


View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2006, 10:15:20 AM »

Thanks for the information!!!
Grassy Ass.
 Cool
Logged

JW
MadTainer
Newbie
*
Posts: 12


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2006, 05:46:02 PM »

Quote from: "J. Kretschmer, AIA"
Quote from: "KBighair"
.

If you design like ours you DO NOT NEED TO POUR ANY CONCRETE, a shipping container can stand stacked up nine high they do not  need to be bolted to the ground or supported in a traditional house manner.


Did you get a permit for that? I can't imagine any municipality that would currently issue a building permit for a permanent structure without a foundation made of concrete.

I've also seen many containers resting on the ground with their bases rusting away to nothing.


Yes we are fully permitted, the city would like to forget about us often...yearly. Permitted with all the math to prove that homes do not jump about and does not need to be fixed to the ground. This home is with THREE containers it rests on the skids only three points on heavy timber. The concept like a milk stool to minimize any twisting, we only lean which we change/fix with jacking and new skids. The structure is over 25 years old and we are not rusting away.  They do not sit on earth they sit on timber ties and I beams.   Our ground is the reason it has shifting small and close vertical and lateral moves and this slow movement that rips concrete apart and trees too.    We have many growing trees with the trunk split near the bottom but growing on none the less ! The ground is tearing between the roots.  No concrete works in these conditions. No bolts to transfer loads into the home from earthquakes.  We slip/skid and relevel just fine.  some large structures have systems not to pass load into their structures. We do it small scale but you do have to take your nose out of the code book and do the math and prove it safe. We did,  Containers are big strong boxes and they stack them up very tall on the ships they act as foundation there also no concrete foundations on the ships that I know of. It works great.  We only get sick of the naysayer and close-minded new hires at the city which we have to repeatedly repeat the concept and solution over and over...It is simple to us, but many just cannot grasp this unique simple solution, they make negative assumptions and accusations that are pretty hurtful. We are safer that most homes in CA.  We have already dropped our home and we know exactly what happens! How many folks can say that.

Concrete is not the only solution, but that is what they teach in school, it is making someone lucky very very rich.
Logged
J. Kretschmer, AIA
Newbie
*
Posts: 42


View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2006, 11:10:02 AM »

That's great that you have been permitted and have the proof and engineering to show it. As an architect, I believe in the building codes' intent of protecting the health, safety and welfare of the public, but I also agree with you that the code can be utilized by local municipalities in a way that squashes bright and innovative new ideas.

Part of the reason that so many new, creative building products cost so much, is that the level of testing required to gain universal approvals within the codes can be very expensive.

I have a great and recent example: Kaiser has built a new hospital in Santa Clara, California. There is a newer code here that requires hospitals (classified as an essential service building) to withstand a magnitude 9.0 earthquake. That's a huge seismic event that rarely happens. The new Kaiser hospital is the first required to implement this new requlation. They hired a Japanese engineer who had extensive experience in this type of engineering. However, our American codes had no way of accepting or even testing the engineer's design. Kaiser and their architecture and engineering team had to send pre-built portions of the building to Canada to have them tested. After several years (3 or 5?) , they finally got the State of California to accept the design.

I've learned that if I intend to do anything "outside the box" that I have to remind the City that I'm the qualified professional. If anything were to happen, it's not the City who's responsible, but the architect!
Logged

ennifer Kretschmer, AIA
Principal Architect
J. Kretschmer Architect, San Jose, CA
www.jkretschmer.com
Member: American Institute of Architects, NCARB
MadTainer
Newbie
*
Posts: 12


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2006, 01:02:22 PM »

My grandfather was an architect during the 1920's and he lived in Long Beach during that huge sesimic event and the home where thrown from thier foundations 8 to 9 feet.  These are smaller home of the 1920.  So now we bolt them down and transfer the load right into the stucture.  

Well due to our situation and great minds we designed a strong home with all the comforts and more safety that manages our land issues with not danger or damages.  

In Japan they are begining to design around transfering loads and do not overlook Fluors Old design down in Irvine that is on swamp land - there are rollers under that structure and I was in a good shake event down there and only the windows unsealled.

We are constantly cutting out the first page of the code book and showing that the codes are not suppose to stop innovated design it is only a guideline for the easy way of construction.  Mr Hubby and Father did all the math and loads and such then the city inisited we hire a structural engineer to approve it and  they had to help him with the math - pretty sad state.  Concrete, bolts and those codes are hard to overcome.

Perhpas as prices go up people will be more open - that hospital is probably the safest around.  Can you fix the one In Harbor City next?
Logged
KBighair
Newbie
*
Posts: 37


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2006, 08:14:19 PM »

In my case, the permit issue is a moving target. The site is located on private, rural property in a county with code restrictions that are in flux.
A "manufactured home" (think doublewide as this is Texas) is the closest thing on the books and we are exceeding those requirements.

Currently, if a structure is considered "temporary", there are no restrictions that would prevent us from experimentation. However, because part of the site is within the bounds of a FERC site, it is possible that we may face scrutiny at some point. Therefore, we are proceeding as follows:

Make it up as we go along, just because we have questions we want answered.  At the same time, be mindful of the POSSIBILITY that we may get in trouble later. We are trying all sorts of things, just to have an answer- feel free to suggest something and we'll give it a try, just for grins! We have the time, the funds and the inclination to make this a lab experiment. I expect it will be organically grown over a period of years unless the building inspectors intervene. We have a bit of a leg up with them as we are the largest tax paying private landholder in the county, a major employer of local residents and have recently completed a 6000 sq ft home that passed everything they threw at us with flying colors. So, lets see what we can get away with. Hopefully it is time to spend a little bit of the goodwill capital we have in reserve. At the very worst, we won't have to tear it down so let's go.  

The eye toward possible intervention by the "authorities"  has resulted in the choice to place the structure on concrete pads to keep it "temporary"- at the same time, we know exactly how we will pour the concrete foundation that will meet code restrictions. It wasn't terribly difficult to figure out how to do this. Also, we have designed the floor between the containers in a way that will allow it to be examined and modified with little damage or need for rebuilding should we need to do so. We are using SIPS in part of the design and screws are made to be unscrewed.

We are also making other additional provisions that will allow us to pass inspector scrutiny should the need arise. In the meantime, send in those cards and letters and if we like the idea, we'll give it a try. Why not?  greater good huh?

You can see photos here: http://kbighair.typepad.com/el_ranch_iso/

I have posted photos of the first week or work. We are currently obsessed with this project and as long as the obsession lasts, everything is fair game.

Thanks-
Logged

aren Mc
fuegos100
Newbie
*
Posts: 52



View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2006, 08:20:43 AM »

karen,

I'm anxiously keeping up with your progress.  which is going along at a an amazing speed.  must be that you don't have to deal with all that permit business.

great work so far.  I LOVE how you explain how work progress and beer consumption are in fact related.  will you have a ribbon cutting ceremony for blog lurkers upon completion?  I'll bring some beer.

anyhow, we have just bought some land near wimberley.  it's outside of city limits and I've been assured that any barn/storage or temporary building I put up will not require permits.  and it helps that the land is HEAVILY wooded so nobody can really see what I'm doing in there.

I'm thinking one 40 ft container and a wall made of..... straw bale?  rastra or similar ICF, cinder block...  I just saw in dwell where somebody is using pallets stuffed w/ straw and concrete...  anyhow, similar to what you are aiming for, but one long container instead of two short, and a wall where you have container #2

paul schuster
austin, tx
www.schusterphoto.com
Logged
KBighair
Newbie
*
Posts: 37


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2006, 12:49:46 AM »

Yup- it's fun to go fast. easy too. can't wait to hear about you trying it.
as for strawbale, do not, I repeat DO NOT get on the Yahoo Strawbale discussion group unless you have copious amounts of email storage. I was forced to unsubscribe today but it is a valuable resource if you're thinking that way.

I got interested in it for a day or two but I can't bear any more information at the moment.  Here's the address of the North Texas group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sbat-Texoma/ They have links to others and one guy who knows his stuff.  Good luck on that.

also, thank you for thhe kind words. They are not alwasy plentiful around hhere. I'm just a girl trying to have some fun but apparently that makes some people mad or something.

Peace
Logged

aren Mc
paulsaw
Newbie
*
Posts: 23


View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2006, 02:27:44 AM »

Karen, http://kbighair.typepad.com/el_ranch_iso/ <--- great stuff!
Logged

Paul Sawyers
sailboatescape
Newbie
*
Posts: 133


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2006, 11:10:19 AM »

Thanks for taking the time to share what you are learning.  I have toyed with the idea of a tiny mountain retreat for several years.  Instead I have just put my big house on the market and am designing a place for full time residency.
Logged
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

UseBB Port by Gaia Powered by SMF 1.1.3 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC