More of the Redondo Beach House

[paulk]

Regarding mods of containers by TAW for residential uses, can I assume the necessary engineering is certified such that building departmenst accept their use in construction?  They would not be that far from where I plan to build so might be a good alternative for me.

[lavardera]

I know they are committed to working through any questions that a building department may bring to the table, at least as much as it is centered around the issue of the IBU.

[honus]

Some friends are thinking about building with containers and have contacted the Logical Home company web page.  They have many questions and a few that I am also curious about.  I believe TAW company is located in Florida.  Do they service the entire US?  Are there other companies that do what TAW does?  If so, where are they located?  The containers seem to be in every port around the country and it just makes sense that there would be companies that modify them in the same ports.  With the rising cost of gasoline the delivery of containers is a growing issue.  I think that it costs 5 or 6 thousand dollars, maybe more, to deliver a 40' container from Florida to Seattle?   Does it matter how much it weighs?  Does it make sense to send it via ship/boat instead of over the road?  What happens to the finished containers during shipping?  Don't they get banged around if placed on a ship/boat and how are they prepped to take a road trip to the West Coast?  Do they have vinyl/plastic protective covers?  What shape are the containers in now that were delivered to Redondo Beach?  Do the Redondo Beach people have any of these answers?  Can anyone shed light on the delivery costs as well as if other "container" chop shops exist?  For me and my friends, the idea of living in a container house has come of age, now the details to make it a reality are beginning to surface.

[paulk]

Just a thought that entered my mind since a couple of people I know are trucking brokers...

See about having a container delivered by a trucker who can use it to deliver product to a terminal in your area then drop off the empty at a place close to you where a proper vehicle can pick it up and place it for you locally.

You may be able to work a deal...who knows.

Not suitable for delivery of pre-fab units of course, just for un modified containers.

[lavardera]

Some friends are thinking about building with containers and have contacted the Logical Home company web page.  They have many questions and a few that I am also curious about.  I believe TAW company is located in Florida.  Do they service the entire US?  Are there other companies that do what TAW does?  If so, where are they located?  The containers seem to be in every port around the country and it just makes sense that there would be companies that modify them in the same ports.  With the rising cost of gasoline the delivery of containers is a growing issue.  I think that it costs 5 or 6 thousand dollars, maybe more, to deliver a 40' container from Florida to Seattle?   Does it matter how much it weighs?  Does it make sense to send it via ship/boat instead of over the road?  What happens to the finished containers during shipping?  Don't they get banged around if placed on a ship/boat and how are they prepped to take a road trip to the West Coast?  Do they have vinyl/plastic protective covers?  What shape are the containers in now that were delivered to Redondo Beach?  Do the Redondo Beach people have any of these answers?  Can anyone shed light on the delivery costs as well as if other "container" chop shops exist?  For me and my friends, the idea of living in a container house has come of age, now the details to make it a reality are beginning to surface.

Honus, once you cut the box it looses its certification and it can not be re-entered into normal shipping channels without it. So, TAW can re-certify a modified box because they have one of the few testing rigs in the US for doing so. As you might guess, this can add cost because of testing time and handling, but also because making the box strong enough to re-certify may make it much stronger than it needs to be for use in a house. If so then general shipping is likely ruled out. You can still put them on the road because there is always an option to move them on a flatbed trailer rather than on the kind of trailer chassis that mounts containers directly. That kind of trailer requires a certified box.

This is where standardized designs and production comes into it vs DIY. For a product where the same modified box will be built repeatedly, now you can invest in the re-cert, and build that certified design without having to retest every unit. Now you can have a standard design that holds certification which can be put back in shipping channels. There are issues with handling - openings need temporary closure which must meet ISO standards as well. The thick insulating paint can chip off in handling. Obviously there has to be a level of volume before centralized manufacturing overcomes cost of transport, but there also needs to be a level of volume before you can support multiple manufacturing locations. Until then you are shipping them or working with people for whom this is something new.

Ultimately it makes sense to fabricate closer to where you will build, but that is so with any prefab house.

Paulk, that sounds fine, but remember - you want some discretion in picking the boxes you start with. Some of these are really beat up, or have had stuff spilled in them that you would not want in your house. Its like a used car. You can find them for a few thousand dollars but they are likely to be a piece of sh-t.

[paulk]

What seems to be the typical cost for a container, 20 x 8 and 40 x 8?

I have one 20 x 8 I have had for a couple of years just for storage. I paid $1,000 including delivery from about 30 miles away and they even put a fresh coat of paint on it for me. Pretty good condition.

How would you find them at a port? Being in Miami I am close to several major ports but have no clue who to ask about surplus containers.

As far as delivery I don't suppose having them brought on a normal flat bed would be much use unless you had a crane or superman available to set them on the groud.  Any time mine is moved it is loaded on a wrecker that can pick it up and set it down where I want it.

P

[etb]

What seems to be the typical cost for a container, 20 x 8 and 40 x 8?

One snippet of information:

http://kbighair.typepad.com/el_ranch_iso/2006/06/containers_mate.html

As far as delivery I don't suppose having them brought on a normal flat bed would be much use unless you had a crane or superman available to set them on the groud.

You don't necessarily need a crane or superman.  

http://kbighair.typepad.com/el_ranch_iso/2006/06/ok_the_containe.html

She doesn't say what sort of vehicle they were originally delivered on but that's rather beside the point as it was presumably one designed specifically for containers which would not apply if they'd already been modified.

Using the roll off trailer to move containers across the US seems a bit much but surely it would be possible to arrange a transfer somewhere?

[slenzen]

For a previous company I owned, I checked w/ local trucking companies  to see if they had any backhaul deals.  Many truckers get paid to haul stuff and return home empty.  They always look for a few bucks on the way back.   Then you probably would get around any certification because you wouldnt be using the container to transport anything.  It takes a few phone calls to owner/operators to find out.

[lavardera]

For a previous company I owned, I checked w/ local trucking companies  to see if they had any backhaul deals.  Many truckers get paid to haul stuff and return home empty.  They always look for a few bucks on the way back.   Then you probably would get around any certification because you wouldnt be using the container to transport anything.  It takes a few phone calls to owner/operators to find out.

The cert is there so there is assurance that the box meets the standards of strength. Its for safety so nobody gets hurt by a box collapsing during handling, or buckling on a highway.

[honus]

Hey Lavadera:  
This is new ground for me but does the certification that you described pertain to placing a container on a ship? or does it apply to the Uniform Building Code for Constructions?  Were the containers at the Redondo Beach house certified for construction, certified for transport on a truck, certified for???  I'm not sure about where this is going but certifications usually carry some clout.  I've heard of ICBO certifications and numbers.  Are these the ceritifications that you refer to?  Thanks, I read some of your other posts and you are a wealth of technical knowledge.

Honus  

[lavardera]

Its nothing to do with construction code. Its a certification of ISO standard that shipping containers must meet. Go look at one. It will have a plaque mounted on it that certifies it meets the standard. This is how anybody handling them can be certain that they are strong and will be safe to stack, etc. Once you cut a hole in it it looses that certification because it no longer adheres to the design that was certified. So unless you retest it at that point you no longer have an ISO shipping container - now you have a metal box with a hole in it.



self portrait in a certification plaque

I'm not sure about Redando - I think they traveled on a flat bed.

[honus]

Another article that was sent to me today,

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyID=2006-09-16T164509Z_01_N9D440766_RTRUKOC_0_US-LIFE-CONTAINERS-HOME.xml&archived=False

LaVardera, thanks for all your feedback.  I still don't get how containers are sent from Florida and they are "affordable" but the TAW Company must be doing them at an affordable low cost.  5K for shipping is a lot. 10 containers at the Redondo project means they spent 50K on shipping???  The article said that the house was being built for $135 per square foot.  If the house is 3000 sq. ft. that means the house cost 405K.  50K is 12% of the construction budget and that is just the delivery of the containers!  It just doesn't make sense and a few friends that got together this weekend argued about it for over an hour.  You can save the 50K if the containers can be done for the same amount or less in other places closer to the construction site.  12% is huge in the affordable housing market.

Paulk, you're ideas on shipping are great and I think you summed up the approach;  you basically go local and find what you can.  There has to be someone in every port.  Your $1,000 for the container with a fresh coat of paint and delivered sounds reasonable and that's what we're assuming "normal" or standard costs are.  

Maybe we can settle all this.  Hey dcross, can you give the Container Bay a general rule for what costs to expect for a container that has been modified for a home and what are the actual delivery costs across the US?

The article above was good, sounds like the owners really like their new home, enjoy.

[lavardera]

Well, first off I've never claimed that they were inexpensive. And spending a big portion of your budget on delivery is not very satisfying. But until there are other vendors willing to offer the technical back-up that TAW brings to the table, or until TAW has enough volume for a second mod facility, I don't know how you work around it. You are always free to procure your own containers, your own engineer, and go it on you own, but there are many others who don't want to spend their time that way, or can earn more in the given time than they will spend to have TAW do it for them. You have to do what is right for you.

[dcross]

Hey dcross, can you give the Container Bay a general rule for what costs to expect for a container that has been modified for a home and what are the actual delivery costs across the US?

I can give you a general rule for what to expect when a "general container modification" is defined by you and others.  The house in this thread had 8 (not 10) very unique ISBU containers that are in now way to be compared with a general rule or a general modification.  As for what those specific units cost I cannot share with you as that would just not "feel right"  there is no conclusion on future pricing that anyone could draw from them as they were so unique.

I will share that freight was 1/2 the amount you are thinking of.  this is because 4 units (approximately 20' each) traveled 2 per truck.    

Bear in mind that almost any article you read was written for others that do not frequent this or other types of boards.  They print sound bites that fit the story and it skews the details somewhat.

So what is a general container modification, is it three framed window fenestrations, 1 door aperture, is it one side removed or is it both completely removed or none at all, is it a 8" toprail beam added, doubler plate on the bottom rail?, is it primed, painted, are the floors ureathane sealed, Is it insulated, is it with or without rafters, what about floor penetrations, is there an engineering package with it by us or someone else,, is it a high cube or a standard, is it to be criss crossed in stackin g or in line, is there connecting plates required, is there a roof top access hatch?  does the interior have the hatchannel installed to receive drywall, what will one expect for an exterior surface corrugated container wall, hardy wall, other).

We are working towards a general system, right now the answer to your question can range from $14,000- $33,000 depending on what we get for input to the above.

[honus]

Wow, dcross, that was informative!  With all those unanswered questions it is nearly impossible to get a firm grip on costs;  point well taken.  The price range of 14K to 33K is huge in my mind and I don't know how that will translate into a decent cost savings for someone trying to get their own home built.  "newcreature" posted a total cost of around 10K for container and modifications and that sounded closer to what I had expected.  These costs force one to rethink the feasibility of the container as a building.   Wow, I'm still dumbfounded.  :cry: